HDDSLR vs. Red … has war been declared?
Two days ago RED’s Founder Jim Jannard made the following statement:
“I fully expect the DSLR mfgs to get it right at some point. Make a non-line-skipping 4K camera. At that point, the difference will be RAW 5K and 6K vs. whatever they make. Until then, a line-skipping 1080P camera is just not in the running for a pro camera. Can you make OK images with a line-skipping 1080P camera? Sure. Should you be embarrassed? Yes. We are not in that business.
I saw the Canon commercial about shooting “motion stills”. They should be ashamed. Just try to take a still from their motion 1080P capture…
Jim –REDuser.net“
Certain sites summed up his statement as “RED founder blasts DSLR video” or “DSLRs vs. RED – Fight! Fight!”
Well I have a different take on it… and not one that you might expect. I didn’t want to touch one this – but I’ve gotten several e-mails and comments about it – and think I’ll take the risk of weighing in.
First of all some key statements that I need to get out of the way:
1. I am a Canon Explorer of Light and sponsored by them, I am also one of the people that has obviously had a lot to do with the HDDSLR movement since it’s inception – in fact I shot one of the – if not the – first video with the Canon 5D MKII. Obviously – I’m a big fan of HDDSLRs.
2. I have no official relationship with RED whatsoever – I do have what I would consider to be several very healthy professional and personal relationships with people at RED.
3. I shoot with both systems (and others) regularly now.
So here it goes:
First – I agree to some degree with what Jim says on a technical level. Line-skipping is now the only major technical drawback standing in the way of Canon HDDSLRs being used to their fullest potential. I can work with the compression and all of the other well documented challenges that are inherent with HDDSLRs – line skipping is the only one I don’t have a solution to at this point. On some projects I can’t use the HDDSLRs at all (for example – one with lots of buildings (with bricks or sharp lines) in the background, lots of detail, or for example shooting a video on black and white tiles could be a potential headache… (you can of course shoot w/ shallow depth of field to minimize this – but if you have to see it an object w/ sharp edges – it can lead to some disappointing results.) I would qualify that statement however – and say that the line skipping (while very apparent on an Apple Cinema Display or reference monitor) are significantly minimized when projected on a high-end projector and/or when the footage is compressed or played over the web…
What I don’t agree with is the “embarrassed” statement. I think Jim got a little carried away on this one – and I think he may perhaps have been referring more to the Canon ad he mentions later – rather than to the DPs/Directors that use the Canon HDDSLRs… I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt on that one. He’s a passionate guy and I think we owe it to him to give him at least that.
I do know the agency, creative directors, and director who shot that Canon ad btw – and it was NOT shot with a Canon HDDSLR… but I guess I can see where he’s coming from – from a technical perfectionist’s point of view.
In the end – I hope that Jim will clarify his statement.
Why?
Because frankly – the products that RED are now producing and that I’ve had the fortune to work with (Red Mysterium X) are the best products they’ve produced to date and are some of the very best out in the market today. If you’ve already made your opinion up based on the RED ONE – I’d recommend you give these new cameras a second chance – I for one am quite impressed with the Mysterium X sensor. And the RED EPIC has me quite excited.
Sure there have been more than a few delays in production / and release dates – and a lot of people are disappointed. That being said, you can never lose sight of the fact that RED is a relatively small company when compared to the behemoth that Canon Inc. is – in fact Canon Inc. dwarfs Nikon for example… so give them a break for having the courage/audacity to challenge anyone and go for it against these much larger mega corporations.
I for one admire them for it. One should also keep in mind that people at RED are passionate – and if they happen to promise us the world – it’s because they are actually aiming to do produce the best products possible. I don’t think Jannard has ever aimed to produce a product that was “good enough.” Issues arise however on the end user side – when people try to construct budgets/productions around those schedules… and those schedules aren’t met.
I also admire Canon for producing what is arguably one the most “game changing” cameras in history (the Canon 5D MKII). I think it would be hard to argue that the entire playing field in the video world hasn’t been turned upside down as a result of that camera’s release.
I think there’s plenty of room for both companies in the video/film market – and that no one need be “embarrassed” about what system they choose to use. Canon on the other hand makes no promised whatsoever… they never say or hint at what product may or may not be coming out and/or when… nor that they’re “actively working on a fix” for “x” “y” or “z.” This too can be equally frustrating…. Their announcement that they were working on a firmware update for the 5D MKII was a BIG change for them… a BIG deal and a substantial departure from the way they tend to do business… that was a great sign for all of us HDDSLR folks.
Perhaps somewhere in between would be best for everyone… don’t you think?
If there’s only one criticism that I have with RED – it’s that they’ve tended to over-promise and deliver late… basically the opposite of what Apple does (Apple stays absolutely secret about their projects, deny they’re working on anything, and releases them only when they are confident the product is ready for prime time…) I personally would prefer to get hard deadlines from RED on future product releases – even if those dates are overly conservative on their end.
In conclusion – I’m an end-user – and I use RED and HDDSLR products all the time – and will continue to (and the Alexa too) as I go.
Why?
I think the most important thing to take away from the RED vs HDDSLR vs film vs all other camera debate is:
THERE
IS
NO
ONE
SINGLE
PERFECT
CAMERA
OUT
THERE
THAT
IS
RIGHT
FOR
EVERYONE
Period.
Every camera has it’s place. Every camera excels in some things – and fails in others. Every end user has specific needs, quality standards, and budgets…
In the end – learn all of the tools (if you can) – and use the best tool for any given job.
Or do what I do – use a number of them on the same job and be well ahead of the curve.
And never, ever forget – it’s not about the TOOLS – it’s about the IDEAS/CONCEPTS that you have when all is said and done!
I think it’s fair to say that there are few – if any – absolutes in life – and the same can be said for cameras. If there were – we’d all be using the same ONE camera and other companies would quickly go out of business. And that would be a disaster for everyone… competition is a GOOD and healthy thing. One of my favorite sayings is that “a one newspaper town is not a good thing” you want at least two papers if not more – so that each competes to get the scoop and as a result to keep everyone in government/agencies etc. on their toes…
We all want the latest and greatest NOW (see the madness behind the iPhone 4 launch as an example…) I’m just as eager to use the RED Epic and / or the successor to the Canon 5D MKII. I’m also happy to wait for those cameras to be ready for prime time – and to use what is available to me NOW in order to do the best work I can.
Tags: 5D, Canon, Digital Video, HDDSLR, Jannard, Laforet, Red, Red Epic, Red One, Vincent
Good post! I definitely agree, you choose the camera for the project. Have an open mind and use the tools that are right for you.
I really appreciate the candor as a end user and I agree that these are creative tools to be used for the right effect. It’s great to have the debate and all players pushing the edge to our benefit.
Well said Vincent. I agree that there isn’t the “perfect” camera out there in the world today. Besides, it’s not about the gear that you use, It’s what you do with it that matters most.
That pretty much says it.
You’re right, there is no perfect camera, it’s impossible for there to be one camera that satisfies everyone’s needs.
Until the Scarlet (announced two years ago) or DSMC (1.5 years ago) ships, they just don’t have anything that competes against SLR video. They are effectively different markets as the price gulf between the EPIC and 5DII or 7D is huge. Why would I compare a camera that I have or can afford now, against a camera brand that has products that are a lot less affordable or might be affordable, but with no shipping date?
Well said. 🙂
Spot on Vincent!! Cameras are just tools.
I am surprised that this versus thing is still going on. As most say, the right tool for the right job. So why the rift? Why the “mine is bigger than yours?” All this is a waste of time.
In RED’s case, it may help deflect from the many issues they’ve experienced since the RED One’s inception but all this huffing and puffing won’t change the situation. Focusing on the issues at hand will.
And with respect to HDSLR’s, yes there are many challenges inherent with the technology but we work around it. Both cameras offer many reasons to use them…so, let’s shut up and use them.
That is all =)
Vincent, I totally agree with your comments!
That’s why I chose to use both on my new television series, LIGHTSCAPES, which premieres on Discovery HD Theater this Monday, June 21 at 7:30am ET/PT. http://lightscapes.tv
I am using the Canon 5D Mark II for my documentary about Japanese youth counterculture, CHILDREN OF ENLIGHTENMENT.
I will be using Red for several upcoming narrative shorts and features, sometimes in conjunction with the 5D and other cameras.
I am using the 5D to capture fusion wedding videos.
Pick your poison!
I think Jim’s fed-up of having his products being compared directly to what he believes are not “Pro” offerings. I noticed that he even changed his avatar to reflect one that has a big bold “PRO” written all over it. He’s trying to build a reputation of being a maker of high end motion picture equipment, a la Arri, and being compared to “lesser” cameras hinders that process. I believe that’s why Scarlet has taken so long. RED’s priority seems to always have been on the “PRO” stuff. Of course, this is only my opinion. BTW… I am a former owner of both a RED One and a 5D2. Neither of them gave me what I wanted in a camera. I’m still waiting for one that will, which I once thought it would probably end up being the RED FF35 DSMC. Now, I wonder.
Tom Reply:
June 19th, 2010 at 5:39 pm
@Tico,
Everyone in our business know that RED was tested in Germany against ALEXA. The loose the battle and now we see that they need more time to fix it. So simple is that!
Very well put Eric.
My initial thoughts on the comments made by RED’s Founder Jim Jannard where, “somebody’s scared!!!”. With all of the success of both of these camera classes HDSLR’s and RED ONE, one would think that this kind of brand bashing from the people at RED would have been put to rest with these 3 small but (very apparent) things.
1. Canon’s HDSLR affordability allows everyone to use their creative abilities.
2. Canon’s cameras totally perform beyond what most (including myself) would have ever imagined for video.
3. These are 2 totally different types of cameras.
In closing I’d just like to say that I’m relatively new to the HDSLR world but I definitely know innovation when I see it (Canon 5D Mark II and 7D). And it would probably not be in the best interest of the people at RED to challenge what Canon might be capable of. Just with these HDSLR advancements they have given doubt to some RED users (myself included), if I were them I’d be very careful NOT to pic the kind of fight that could quite possibly get them knocked out before the 1st bell. LOL…
Thank you Vincent for a great article…..
Rod Cole Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 10:37 am
@Rick Augustus, I agree completely with your statement above and I agree with Vincent.
There is plenty of room for everyone and the competition among brands will result in better equipment at lower prices. I hope that Canon takes as a challenge the need to fix the line skipping and perhaps give us RAW output. Canon also needs to fix the HDMI output and perhaps give us SDI.
Red obviously has some problems that it needs to fix as well.
Without the competition between Red, Sony, Canon, Arri, and others, who knows what kind of equipment we would have to work with?
Jim Jannard makes a great product. But at the end of the day I can walk in to a store or go to any number of online retailers and buy nearly any Canon product. I don’t think RED’s products have the same kind of accessibility Canon’s have. RED can say whatever they want, but they take forever to get something to market, and while they wait, a low cost Canon product ( or Nikon for that matter ) will have been released leaving most people asking themselves why they waited for the magical RED sauce.
I want RED to be better. I want them to sell millions of cameras to anyone who wants one. but right now they’re a small club with few members. Their business model isn’t the most effective, but as a billionaire’s hobby, maybe he just get’s off on keeping his basketball all to himself.
It was reported that Jim Jannard, founder of RED, has sent out another press release: “My comments about the Canons were harsh, and talking bad about professionals was perhaps meaner. But if I could say anything to help out in any way…it’s that my camera can beat up your camera, so neener neener neener!”
Totally agree with you Vincent! Narrow-minded people are not good in this business/passion.
I really enjoyed this, even though I don’t know much about Red camera’s. It kept me updated on something I did not know about. Thanks!
Jim needs to take a big step back and get off that Red horse he rode in here on. All he does is talk. Maybe that’s why his cameras are always delayed, cause he’s always talking crap about the other guy. Stop talking sh*t and release a camera, period. Then, when you beat out the competition in SALES and number of actual working units in the field, you can talk more crap again. I’m so sick of this guy. I was a huge Red fan in the beginning and saved up a considerable amount of money to build a Scarlet kit, but that was 2009. Now I have a 5D mkii, and a lot of toys for it, and money left over for travel. And I love it.
Red reserves the right to refuse service to anyone with a bad attitude.
well,
I refuse the right to spend money on any company with a bad attitude.
It’s a toughy. Red changed the market — it applied Moore’s Law to video cameras, something that was too costly for other less well funded individuals and companies weren’t able to do (google Kinetta).
Mr. Jannard applied his considerable resources and has delivered some great cameras while dangling the possibility of even greater cameras to come.
The problem with announcing a road map is that his bigger and better funded rivals saw the same information as we did. And they are catching up as they need too — as soon as Red or Canon or whomever showed a viable market — Panasonic and Sony have now announced large sensor interchangeable lens competitors at this year’s NAB and they’ll ploddingly release them in the next 6 to 8 months.
Will Red reap the profits of the revolution that they started? Probably. They’ve already sold hundreds of millions of dollars in Red One cameras and accessories, and when they start selling Epics and then Scarlets, they’ll sell hundreds of millions of dollars more.
It just feels like they could have been even more successful if they delivered Scarlet when the 5DmkII shipped.
Jim and his company are amazing. What they are tying to do is unbelievably exciting. I think what is missed by them, and why so many of us fell in love with the HDDSLR’s, is the affordability. I’m a DP at large TV studio and if budgets are as tight as they are for us, then imagine the independent producers concerns. When I was a kid and dreaming of cinematography, it was out of reach, and seemed only available to those with money. Instead, I eventually became a photojournalist. Man, to be a kid now. You can save up for a freaking 7D and start to make your dreams come true.
Its like Francis Ford Coppola says at the end of “Hearts of Darkness,” about how he hopes someday a camera comes around that allows people to make films who otherwise couldn’t. And them some fat girl in Ohio becomes the next Mozart….or something like that…and I totally agree. Its exciting to think of the unique voices we’ll hear in the future. I mean really, think of your favorite foods, I’ll bet they came from the poor creatives:-)
Thanks Vincent. And Thanks Jim; you’re a machine.
Good perspective.
Ditto, SO well said. You put it all into persective. I admit, if I were confined to that desert isle and had to pick only one camera, it’d be my 5D Mark II, simply because it CAN shoot wonderful video, and in all of this video hub-bub have we forgotten what a great PHOTO camera this is? LOL! Oh yeah, that!
well put, especially about the no perfect camera out there – that’s a carrot no donkey will ever catch.
When you are in the public eye using both system such as you are Vincent I can understand it’s hard to keep both parties happy without stepping on anyones toes. So I’ll do it
From a man on the street “average Joe’s” view, RED’s product will always be seen as “elitist” out of the reach of most up and coming talent. What Jim needs to ask himself is when the new crop of young up and coming talent using todays Canon HDSLR’s is ready for the mainstream will they choose Canon or RED systems ? He brags that when Canon finally deliver a 4K HDSLR they would have a equivalent of a 5K or even 6K camera already. Laughable !
The scarlet has been in development for 3 years now with no clear street date, just how will he get that right ? Canon in a little under two years is on it’s third generation of HDSLR ? Jim needs to wake up and smell his Kopi Luwak me thinks.
Great post Vincent but….
I think one of the main things missed (unless I missed it ha) is the price factor!
Of course RED Epic will be a great camera and blah blah RED vs HDSLR…
I think people are getting way too anal over this RED / HDSLR Debate…if you can afford the RED Epic then get it…I cant but would love one ha
The Canon 5DMKII is a great camera for a great price with many many many lens choices. The RED Epic I doubt you’d even be able to buy for a close price match along with a good set of lenses to start with.
I think thats why people get so frustrated…the RED is great but too expensive for people like me and the RED people prob get frustrated because Canon never intended the 5D to be a pro video camera and the quality it produces still amazes me…and for the price and lens choices available…i’d imagine it would frustrate RED and its users.
Martin Weiss Reply:
June 18th, 2010 at 3:14 pm
@Imacanon, On the other side it could very well be very frustrating for Jim/RED to constantly hear that the 5Ds are much cheaper, with references to say “House” — totally ignoring the facts that after the cameras were built into units that made it possible for professional film crews to do their job with this camera, the price difference was negligible.
Just because House used a Canon, does not automatically mean that a out-of-the-box 5D will give you the same results. Just as a out-of-the-box RED One will not automatically give you the Pirates of the Caribbean IV look 😉
JT Reply:
June 18th, 2010 at 11:13 pm
@Martin Weiss, To be honest a lot of other filmmakers including myself won’t be seeing Pirates of the Caribbean 4 or purchasing it. I’d rather save a few dollars than watch any of it go to the pompous jackass that runs RED.
Martin Weiss Reply:
June 19th, 2010 at 4:18 am
@JT,
Why turn it into a personal attack, rather than discussing the point I tried to make?
JT Reply:
June 20th, 2010 at 2:10 pm
@Martin Weiss, its not a personal attack on anyone, i just made a few truthful statements.
Phil Reply:
June 20th, 2010 at 3:22 pm
@JT, Calling someone a pompous jackass *isn’t* personal? hate to hear what you say when you are being personal!
Excellent Vincent! I’m a 100% with you. What should also be said is that people got crazy about HDSLRs. It’s OK, but we cannot think that Canon will “save the world”. I’m a 5D owner and I’m still using Red cameras, Weisscam, Sony, GoPro…
I think Jim is failing to understand that while his company has put out a truly revolutionary camera in regards to digital motion picture delivery, the price point has still kept it out of the hands of aspiring filmmakers. Canon inadvertently captured the imagination of those who had a story to tell but not the budget to go with that vision. I feel like affordable digital technology has finally caught up with my vision as a filmmaker and has allowed me to tell my stories with the same look as the big boys.
There are certainly some problems with the HDSLRS, but as with every format, the DP is responsible for being aware of those problems and working around them. And it looks like there are more than a few DP’s who have successfully done that… making me, the little guy, even more proud to work with the HDSLRs.
Jim has a fine product and instead of trying to “shame” the HDSLR filmmaker, he should be letting RED’s work speak for itself. We have a lot of new digital filmmakers who will one day have a bigger budget to work with and will want to dip their toes into the deeper waters… don’t make it about “us and them”… because at that point, you might have lost a future “REDUSER”.
I totally agree with everyone that totally agrees with you, Vincent! 1001‰ 🙂
I think it’s a jealousy thing. I think RED is feeling they are not the “hot guys” in town anymore. I remember a couple of years ago, it was all about the RED and now it’s all about HDSRLs. Don’t worry Jim, in 2 years it will be all about the “4K iPhone”. That’s technology. Like you said Vince, choose the best tool and shoot the best that you can afford.
Dear Vincent,
I am an independent filmmaker who is really taking to heart your observations and could use your further insight if I might.
I attended Cinegear two weeks ago where I and my partner had the opportunity to see the HOUSE episode utilizing the Canon 5D MkII projected on the big screen in the Paramount lot theater to very positive result (i.e. the line drops weren’t apparent, albeit a lot of the footage was close-ups of the actors in a confined space.) I have no idea what they spent on post, so that may or may not be a factor, but obviously this was a first class exhibition.
Given both this issue and that of the rolling shutter issue, all things being equal, if I were to seek making a feature-length film as opposed to a webisode, are you suggesting that the anticipated Canon XF 305 digital camera due in July would be a better choice (price issues aside?) The film that I intended to shoot with the Canon 5D has outdoor sequences such as hillsides, indoor sequences such as club scenes, and your usual traffic/car sequences, but two-thirds of the film is talking heads.
Julio
Thanks for this very balanced view.
And as you said it so precisely, every camera has its’ usages, and every camera has flaws. And I also understood Jim’s comment in the way you did; not as an attack on those people who use the camera in creative ways, but on those (few) people who make claims such as that Hollywood feature films are shot on a Canon.
I think the bottom line is that these are very, very exciting times for us film makers, and all the time we get better, more affordable, more potent tools into our hands.
At the end of the day it is the story and our creativity that counts.
Martin Weiss Reply:
June 18th, 2010 at 3:10 pm
Forgot to add a disclaimer that I am a voluntary moderator over at Reduser and a RED One owner/operator. Some of my best friends have REDs, others have P2/XDcam cameras, and others again are happy with their 5Ds/7Ds/550Ds or even iPhones.
Red is half right, I just wish they would concentrate in making ONE camera / sensor, with a standard bayonet. ( leave the lenses to Zeiss etc)
it would be great if Canon ( or RED, or Nikon / Fuji / Panasonic, etc) would make a mirrorless large sensor with no line skipping Camera. it is really not difficult, or expensive. But I guess they have to please the Megapixel myth crowd.
Martin Weiss Reply:
June 19th, 2010 at 4:22 am
@Tulio,
You can use Canon, Nikon, Contax, Minolta and a plethora of other lenses on the R1, by using one of the many available mounts (e.g. A-mount, Birger Mount, Alesniak Mount, Nikon mount, …)
The next generation cameras will come with the options of a number of mounts, including out-of-the-box support for Canon electronic lenses and follow focus.
The reason RED started making lenses was that suddenly there was a huge demand for PL mount lenses, a demand the market could not satisfy. Suddenly you would get o.k. quality lenses selling for crazy prices on eBay.
The VDSLR’s have created a market all their own. One that even Canon did not anticipate initially. They are primarily still cameras with consumer/prosumer level video features.
Comparing them to Red is apples and oranges. Red is a boutique manufacturer more like Arriflex than Canon. They will not likely ever be, nor do they need to be a consumer mass market company. Their primary product goal is to produce digital motion picture cameras truly capable of no compromise replacement for film cameras in image quality features and functionality across a broad price range spectrum from the high end of the prosumer market into the market levels occupied by Sony, Panavision, Arriflex at the high end. Canon has traditionally not built anything but optics for the mid to high end pro motion picture/video industry beyond the prosumer under $10k camera category.
There will be some market overlap between RED at the low end and Canon at its high end, but they are in reality aimed at different market niches and the products have different primary purposes reflected in their designs, functionality, image quality, and prices. Both have their place. Red won’t take over the DSLR market, and DSLR’s won’t replace a Red or Arri for people who want an uncompromised professional level motion picture camera with the full array of operational and ergonomic features as well as image quality that entails.
In my mind Red and Canon share kudos for lowering the entry level cost to potentially higher quality production values for all filmmakers and cinematographers. But they are radically different companies making radically different products.
Mark Reply:
June 18th, 2010 at 10:38 pm
@David R.,
Very well said.
Good article. Gear must suit the conditions of the shoot and the skill set(s) of the shooter(s). I just sent out two Panasonic Lumix GH1s to Africa for a shoot instead of our Sony EX1 and instead of all current Canons we considered (5D Mark II, 7D, T2i). It’s turning out to be the best decision for this particular shoot.
I am personally waiting to buy my own GH2 with a [hopefully] global shutter. Love the RED. Can’t afford the RED. Lumix G-Series suit me best – so far.
T
I don’t own any of the gear mentioned above but am certainly familiar with it and while I would like to have every pixel in place the reality causes us to do the best we can. If you don’t have the photo chops to use the Canon or the Red it won’t make any difference. Beyond the technical aspects the DP, crew have to be able to have the creativity and vision.
What is really important to me is the fact that still camera Mfg. companies are enabling many people to explore things that would have been out of their reach a few years ago. Red is a great piece of gear but they up the ante where it comes to know how. With Canon and others, we all get to explore the world of video.
The pixels will always be peeped; just give me something compelling to watch and I will excuse a few skipped lines.
Really good article and truth well told.
Totally agree with you.
P.S. Jim just posted a clarification to his comments.
http://reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=616859&postcount=58
Clarification #1. I think that Canon should be embarrassed about pretending that line-skipping is good enough when they have the capability to do much more. I’m sure they will in the near future. Until then, they are delivering much less than they are capable of… which is one of the reasons I started this company. No one in this industry seems to move unless they are forced to.
Clarification #2. No shooting professional has to justify what equipment they use… only their results.
If people want to correctly point out our flaws as a company, they will only be joining my previous admissions. We have no idea what we are doing. We are always late.
On the other hand, I would bet that no company in any industry cares more about their customers than RED does. We have taught the industry about free upgrades, trade ins and customer service at 3am. We have set a new standard for direct communication with our customers, a standard that other companies are trying to figure out how to emulate.
I don’t have any problem with someone pointing out that I have no idea what I am doing… I have said that all along. But it is curious that the industry is falling in line to “be like RED”. All I can say is … “don’t do it. You are following the wrong guy.” 🙂
Well put!
BTW the “Explorer of light” title is very pretentious and highly funny. I laughed for an entire day when I first saw it.
Agreed! 🙂 But spending 10k on a decent DSLR set up or 30k on an ok RED set up. I think a lot of small time professionals may opt for the DSLR route.
AGREEE! 100%
WThe cameras we used a few years ago and what we love today are very different. Red came out with their first try and fell a little short. There where jobs that did not come out as well as they could have but they have improved and are a real camera company from nothing only a few years ago. Canon has made an incredible line of cameras and each one is better than the last one. I always try to find the best tool for the project at hand.
An excellent, level-headed response by Vincent. His own work shows the capabilities of DSLR cameras for video. While Mr. Jannard is correct that his company does have a superior product, I feel it is ill advised to issue a statement that can be perceived as a challenge.
What I mean is this. By making such a statement, there could be folks at Canon having the extra motivation of how to bury RED. Yes, Canon is playing catchup, but technology moves the fastest in the low end. Just look at the improvements in P&S cameras over the last few years vs the improvements in digital backs for medium format cameras.
Over time, Canon’s products are going to improve, likely at a rate faster than RED’s. It is quite possible that Canon never catches up. This may not matter if the difference in quality between the final product from using RED’s tools versus Canon’s tools, is imperceivable by the human eye. That’s when measurable differences do not matter. If the the price between RED and Canon remain large, what would be the motivation behind buying the more expensive camera tools when the end product is fundamentally the same?
Of course, regardless of what Mr. Jannard says, the above will likely happen. But to give the opposing team motivation isn’t very wise. That will just accelerate the process.
Is it true that a 5DMKII shooting RAW video would have to be able to process 24 frames or approximately 600 mb (one RAW file = 25mb) per second and write this to a flash card?
I like Red’s, I use them. But the fact is that Canon’s line-skipping/moire issues are driving many of us filmmakers crazy! Canon needs to fix it, they have the resources to make this happen.
I agree with Vincent that both are usable and just need to be chosen for the right job.
Hey!
I just talked about that on my blog!
“Using an HDSLR instead of RED?…you should be embarrassed”
http://www.fatherlyfilms.com/blog/ Check it out please!
Well said Vincent! I agree with you on all counts, but I have been lately touting that the Canon HDDSLR’s, specifically the 5DMII, are not necessarily “Game Changers” as they have been so often referred to, rather they level the playing field for those of us who cannot readily afford even a Red package for our indy projects. “The Game” is still about communication and great story ideas. HDDSLR’s allow us to make little films that look great and can compete with bigger production budgets.
In the words of Ansel Adams: “There is nothing worse than a sharp image of a fuzzy concept.”
嘿嘿 说的没错~
The new red uses small sensors and therefore has no shallow depth of field. To tell you the truth, that’s the whole argument with the DSLR HD revolution, shallow depth of field. Without that, this whole movement is irrelevant.
There’s the saying “You don’t bring a knife to a gunfight”. Well you also shouldn’t show up at the gunfight and tell the other guy that your gun is at home, and you’re almost done putting it together, and why the gun at home is so much better than his.
I wish I were a good enough videographer that the issue even mattered to me, and I’m probably like a whole bunch of people out there. I want to take really good photographs, and when I’m at an birthday/wedding/party/etc I might want to take a video.
I will probably never own a RED, not because it isn’t an awesome product, but because it isn’t what I need. I’m equally sure that there are high end film makers out there who wouldnt use a DSLR because they’re at the opposite end of the “needs” spectrum. Name calling and fight baiting isn’t going to change what anyone “needs” and only suffices to make the person doing the yelling, look a little bit smaller.
Are people moved by your work?
Of yes, then you’re using the right camera.
What camera is that?
Anything from the cassette based pixel2000 to IMAX 3D.
Charcoal or oil base paint?
Attaching whatever emotion to what idea could come by way of ANY material used in precisely the right recipe towards the creators expression.
Sometimes it’s about recognizing if your expression will be dwarfed by the stigma of the tool as is the case for example when trying to make traditional cinematic drama uAre people moved by your work?
Then you’re using the right camera.
What camera is that?
Anything from the cassette based pixel2000 to IMAX 3D.
Charcoal or oil base paint?
Attaching whatever emotion to what idea could come by way of ANYTHING materials used in precisely the right recipe towards the creators expression.
Sometimes it’s about recognizing if your expression will be dwarfed by the stigma of the tool as is the case for example when trying to make traditional cinematic drama using a frame rate of 30fps. Is there a way of shooting drama with a traditional video camera, probably but your up against a mountain of stigma. That is, the wrong emotion response of the a average viewer responding to pedestrian video or ENG type footage.
Mysterious stuff really. . The choices fo the artist.
sing a frame rate of 30fps. Is there a way of shooting drama with a traditional video camera, probably but yoAre people moved by your work?
Then you’re using the right camera.
What camera is that?
Anything from the cassette based pixel2000 to IMAX 3D.
Charcoal or oil base paint?
Attaching whatever emotion to what idea could come by way of ANYTHING materials used in precisely the right recipe towards the creators expression.
Sometimes it’s about recognizing if your expression will be dwarfed by the stigma of the tool as is the case for example when trying to make traditional cinematic drama using a frame rate of 30fps. Is there a way of shooting drama with a traditional video camera, probably but your up against a mountain of stigma that is the wrong emotion response of the a average viewer responding to pedestrian video or ENG type footage.
Mysterious stuff really. . . the choices fo the artist.
I apologize for the gramatical mess above – iPhone typing.
The important aspect for RED should not be to make Canon the enemy. RED is not selling cheap “difficult to use” HDSLR. But RED are still selling the idea of using digital electronics instead of chemical film. The digital option have a lot more going for it NOW then 2 years ago.
That RED MX is a niche product is not an advantage. RED is still an outsider.
I’m reminded by what SGI (google it!) did when the first viable consumer 3D hardware came along around 1997. SGI hjust focued even more on the HPC market. And the HPC market was overrun by cheap Linux clusters a few years later.
The people and the technology inside SGI went stale as the world changed. Some of it was take over by NVIDIA, ATI and Intel. But most of it went out of style. 🙂
I think the best hedge RED could do is to make the a HDSLR fit into the RED workflow somehow. Panasonic is perhaps a possible be a good partner instead. Olympus may alwo fit in here. Panasonic already have Leica as a partner for another niche market.
Things they could make for HDSLR:
– Lenses.
– RAW recording devices.
– Processing software.
– Formats and standards.
– Sync and tracking equipment.
One more thing: SGI started using the cheap hardware. But in a crippled way. They wanted to force people to use the crap high end hardware. Instead people went for Windows and Linux, where the hardware could be used in a modern way.
Unless RED does something like this they can’t make a scalable cost model for new and growing markets. Despite their flaws the HDSLRs actually solves the “motion imaging task” REALLY well. Even for people used to film.
RED Scarlet doesn’t have a market anymore. Sorry! Just drop Scarlet already!
Important features of any product:
+ Exists!
+ Affordable!
+ COTS!
+ Does the job!
Not so important:
– Perfect and flawless.
– Pro / high end. (Expensive)
– Long backlog for replacements.
– Futuristic Design.
– Coming from arrogant manufacturer. 🙂
Glad to hear someone emphasizing the importance of the human element. Photography and cinematography can too easily become a vortex of hype and technical specs.
The the best camera is the one you have with you!
As for Jannard, those comments are pretty irresponsible, which is -unfortunately- consistent with the way RED conducts business. For those who don’t remember, ‘vaporware’ was a standard practice in the tech sector in the 90s – used to pump the stock price or attract market share, a practice which is ethically challenged, to put it mildly.
I heard Rodney Charters and a Canon rep speak recently – Canon engineers are apparently working overtime to deliver features that the pros are clamoring for. I noted that they were careful not to promise anything.
Eric Diosay Reply:
June 21st, 2010 at 1:52 pm
@Ross Hotchkiss, haha…I can see how it would be annoying as a business person to lose market to an “accident.” But the fact remains that he should concentrate on getting his “vaporware” out instead of fencing with the competition. You don’t, for example, see the leaders of other brands berating the competition online. Typical responses is by DELIVERING actual product.
VINCENT
(philosophising)
I think it’s fair to say that there are few
– if any – absolutes in life.
VINCENT (CONT’D)
(strongly professing the reality of absolutes)
One of my favorite sayings is that “a one
newspaper town is not a good thing.”
VIEWERS
(gasps)
Huh!?
Riveted to their iMacs viewers wonder whether there can be good things and bad things without absolutes? Isn’t movie art like a moral value, either mediocre and crappy, or absolutely beautiful like Vincent Laforet’s work? If there are no absolutes, anything goes. But viewers knew better and kept admiring Vincent’s incredible work.
I agree – it is about the storytelling first and the flexibility of whatever tools you have access to second. We are fortunate to have RED, HDSLR’s and other choices at our disposal so the toughest decision we have to make is where we are going to have lunch with the crew!
All the information and comments on this blog are great!! You all might be interested in this website http://www.onedayonearth.org
Pass the word along!
This is perhaps one of the more thoughtful articles I have ever read about the different cameras that so many of us our shooting on today. I wish more people would approach debating gear in this manner. It was a very objective and neutral way when discussing cinema gear and as a result makes for an informative article.
Well, gone are the days of the big budgets that could afford my old ARRI 35mm cameras and glass. The Canon 5dmkII enables me to produce at a quality level as good and in some cases better than film (low light capabilities, smaller HMIs, smaller crews). Some things need work arounds for now but these technologies will evolve quickly. As producers, we are competing in a very crowded market place. Equipment must be affordable and turned around quick. When I first saw RED I thought it was incredibly affordable, today I can not justify it’s cost over the various Canon offerings. I choose to invest in my glass and peripheral gear and merely change the camera bodies as they evolve. Much like having your film equipment for years and using Kodaks amazing Vision stocks as they became available. I do miss the smell of a new can of film though!
The key point in all these endless stories is, as you mention, creativity and ideas.
And ther’s no perfect tool to meet all the needs, but creativity can always solve almost all the problems.
I’m glad I can live this time of changes. Nothing stays permanent for mor than 6 months or less, so we have the chance to test many different products, and get the best of all them.
Canon has made a good move on, Red will do it again wwith Scarlett and the new models… And we’ll only keep enjoying these changes.
Vincent,
Thanks for your valid thoughts. Especially the truth of: “Not the Tools but Concepts.”
We all have to do what we have to do to get the work at hand done in the very best way we can with time and budget contraints we face.
I for one admire both Red and Canon companies in their attempts at putting good equipment at very affordable prices in the hands of an novice such as myself.
Agree with all that VLF says. My experience yesterday might be illustrative. Shooting 60 spots we had a red w/mysterium running on steadicam ‘a’ cam and a 1d as ‘b’ cam. both were doing their respective jobs. As director cameraman I found myself looking over at the B cam from time to time and thinking, “I’m shooting the prose…and he (the B cam) is shooting the poetry.”I was a little envious.
While I find many places where the DSLRs just don’t suffice, I agree with Vince and many others that they have been -like the Red- game changers. JJ is wrong. Far from being embarrassed,we should be ecstatic we have so many sensational options
Fascinating discussion. Professionals know it is not about the tools as they always change – its about application. That said, for someone using regular/good professional video gear and carving out a living it is a pleasure to read relevant info from knowledgeable sources. Thanks.
Great share thanks for teh post!
@Joeseph Consumer Esq., Well Said, is horrible to talk bad about other professionals, I am glad RED miss the opportunity to lead the HDDSLR revolution, with his prideful attitude that stink, as far as me I am ready to buy my Canon 5D Mark III, Go Canon!
@Phil, Actually Jim start “the personals attacks” to all the HDSLRs users, so to be fair JT is free of sin.
@NarcoticNoonie 2 unfollowed you between 10PM and 11PM. See who: http://t.co/x75PnCiF